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Thread: Homeworks Interactive System

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SparkyCoog View Post
    You can reuse the wiring in some capacity so it wouldn't need ripping everything out but your devices all will be replaced. There are a lot more options now including wireless (radio Ra ) depending on how many loads you have, distances, how the original system was installed etc.
    Sparky
    Please do not mislead people on this forum. Interactive -> Illuminations -> QS is a straight forward process. There are many many more parts you can use for a QS upgrade than cannot be used. Radio Ra2 is a huge downgrade from the homeworks platform and there are so many parts in the illuminations system that can NEVER be controlled via Radio Ra 2, IE, RPM panels and Wired shades.

    The items from the Illuminations/ Interactive world that can be used are the RPMs(white labeled U-Modules cannot be used Prior to 2003), Dimmers/Switches (wired and non vareo), all HWI model numbered keypads, QED shades and Q96 interface, H48 modules and wired dimmers (no D48 / vareo dimmers). If the client bought the Illuminations replacement processor so it is new, there is also a way to connect the two systems with IP commands (not recommended for Illuminations processor stability.

    To answer the replace with dumb switches the answer is also no. as the keypads are all wired with LV 4 conductor wire. There is no 120V wiring to keypad locations.

    Lutron Why are you not monitoring thread like this???

    Please contact a Lutron dealer that does not suggest Radio Ra2 and has any kind of understanding as to the upgrade process for Lutron lighting systems.

    I highly recommend you get the program extracted off of the old processor as there is a conversion tool that authorized dealers have that help with not having to trace out and diagnose the whole system.

  2. #32
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    It doesn't sound like you even read the thread. The homeowner here has a dead INTERACTIVE system. It's irrelevant here that you can link to illumination and there is no way to extract programming from a dead processor without being an engineer. Even Lutron doesn't provide that service.

    I'm providing options so if you're offended by that, that's not my problem. Radio Ra2 today can do almost everything an older Interactive system can do and then some with the use of the app so it is not a downgrade. It is YOU who is giving mis-information, not I. Most customers want simple scenes and timers and ra2 does that beautifully. Not everybody wants complicated conditional logic. You can easily reuse the low voltage wire and use a transformer to power the RF keypads. There is a tech note on it. I did it with an old lightolier system and it worked great. Even if there is wiring, it takes little effort to run a line to a new box or use a hybrid keypad.

    Furthermore, the person that I was talking to made it clear that there were no RPMs involved given their system and on top of that, they did not have an illuminations compatible system so the liklihood of reusing any of the old parts would not be possible as older Vareo dimmers are not compatible. Due to the age of this system(obviously pre-2003), it is highly doubtful any of it is compatible. If I'm wrong, tell the homeowner specifically which part they can reuse. So to summarize, pre 2003, no RPMs, Interactive and not Illuminations, likely Vaero dimmers. It's POSSIBLE they can reuse the keypads but if the system is 15 years old, there is physical wear and tear on the keypads and in addition, there is the Lutron tax (license fee) of over $1000 which unless the homeowner has dozens of keypads, makes it not all that feasible to keep. Besides, if it's the old rice grain keypads, it's a completely different looking style anyway.

    The days of "You have to spend $100,000 to have a lighting system that works" are gone unless you're lucky enough to have an exclusive set of customers. If the customer just has 30 lighting loads and 10 keypads and they just want scenes, it's down right dishonest to try to force them to get a QS system when Ra2 will do the job. My job is to look out for the customers. In this case, the homeowner isn't the original owner of the system so if they don't want to spend a lot of money, I would do what I can to make them happy. Some houses are Caseta houses and some houses are QS houses and all I can do is provide options.

    Last year I upgraded a series 4 processor to QS because they had a big investment in keypads. I did a price analysis and found it would cost about the same as Ra2 and it made sense to do it. That's not always the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny54 View Post
    Sparky
    Please do not mislead people on this forum. Interactive -> Illuminations -> QS is a straight forward process. There are many many more parts you can use for a QS upgrade than cannot be used. Radio Ra2 is a huge downgrade from the homeworks platform and there are so many parts in the illuminations system that can NEVER be controlled via Radio Ra 2, IE, RPM panels and Wired shades.

    The items from the Illuminations/ Interactive world that can be used are the RPMs(white labeled U-Modules cannot be used Prior to 2003), Dimmers/Switches (wired and non vareo), all HWI model numbered keypads, QED shades and Q96 interface, H48 modules and wired dimmers (no D48 / vareo dimmers). If the client bought the Illuminations replacement processor so it is new, there is also a way to connect the two systems with IP commands (not recommended for Illuminations processor stability.

    To answer the replace with dumb switches the answer is also no. as the keypads are all wired with LV 4 conductor wire. There is no 120V wiring to keypad locations.

    Lutron Why are you not monitoring thread like this???

    Please contact a Lutron dealer that does not suggest Radio Ra2 and has any kind of understanding as to the upgrade process for Lutron lighting systems.

    I highly recommend you get the program extracted off of the old processor as there is a conversion tool that authorized dealers have that help with not having to trace out and diagnose the whole system.

  3. #33
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    Sparky

    Unless you have had conversations OFFLINE, then no where in his statements was it even eluded to that he had no RPMs. The simple fact that he has Interactive with a processor of a HWI -PO-120 (NOTICE NO D48) hence an off board D48 has to be involved for Vareo dimmers. So in 2000 When about Interactive was out there was another product lutron also made for those who are looking for a switch and keypad solution, Radio Ra. but of course no out going RS-232 connection/ IP. The simple fact that a client has this connected to an audio system means that it was done by a VERY qualified installer. So unless this is a system config that was recommended by lutron or perhaps a job you did in the past, there is no way it does not have RPMs. The fact that he stated that the Keypads are wired to a processor in a panel indicates a PNL-8, since of course 4 series processor did not exist yet. In my 13 years of Lutron programming, specifying, repairing, upgrading and installing, I have never seen or heard of an interactive system without rpms. It was the whole sales pitch for Lutron in the first place. Back then Lutron was the cream of the cream, really the best and most expensive complete solution system out there. So a design without RPMs has to be 1/1000000. But if you say so.

    The fact that you would recommend Lutron RA2 VS a WS wired keypad, wired switches and RF where LED control is desired, solution is crazy to me. Just on the sheer fact of the lack of pathway programming and LED control is enough in a large home to drive anyone nuts. Ra2 is enough for a 1200 sq ft home or so. On a large home with a large system and you want to use RA2, the uploads themselves will take 30-40 mins each time, and that is without failures. So on the programming it probably will actually take longer in the end but I guess that is the point as it is all billable hrs.

    Being able to use just (4) keypads pays for the lic, the wire switches and dimmers if not vareo which it sounds like they are not as there is no D48 on board the processor, so It might be the customers description. But none the less the cost of going to a ra2 vs wired QS is very very comparable if you actually did the math or understood options as a specifier such a you are, should know and understand.

    I digress, as the further I get into this I realize I am just wasting my time and yours as you are not going to listen to what I have said. Enjoy your Ra2 downgrades as an Interactive upgrade/ repair solution. OH and BTW no where in here did anyone ask about the weather and power outages nor if the client has tried rebooting it in safe mode. Might have a chance to get the program and save a few grand in tracing , but alas lets just jump straight to a I know-it-all conclusion. I say this is the solution you should look at without all of the info. I love the internet!!!

    Last edited by Johnny54; 04-20-2017 at 08:35 PM. Reason: verbiage

  4. #34
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    Johnny54,
    You left out the part where he said he wasn't interested in a new system and was looking for a someone to fix the old interactive system which is dead. He mentioned power cycling it and it came back on for a day before going out completely and for the record I did mention calling Lutron's tech support. All the things I would do myself in person. All of this is on the assumption that it's dead. Maybe the original owner was really into this stuff but it doesn't sound like the system has much value to the new owner and is even a nuisance. That pretty much makes takes a new system off the table but for the sake of argument, I'm assuming that he's been able to turn the lights on and off locally while the system has been down so that's why I highly doubt that there are RPMS involved. Usually when none of the lights in the house work, people post a frantic "NOTHING IS WORKING IN THE HOUSE, HELP!!!" kind of post. Also for the sake of argument if I went to the house and it was a centralized or even a hybrid of local/centeralized system, I would also agree that their best solution was to move to Homeworks QS and to try to find out which parts they can re-use. For their sake, I hope they can.

    As far as the cost of QS vs. Ra2 goes, I would argue that for a similar system (Grafik Eyes, wireless keypads and dimmers, etc.) there is about a $2000 difference including the license fee so the number of keypads to be reused to make it even is probably closer to 8-10. It's not just the license fee - you have to buy a new panel because for some reason the 24 inch QS panel is just a couple of inches different than the old panel. You'd also need a power supply for that panel and in the case of the upgrade job I did, a new 15V power supply for the old keypads because as luck would have it, their existing one also died in the time it took to give the quote and order the parts and to start the job. Of course, the QS processor costs almost double the Ra2 main repeater and you'd also need to get a hybrid repeater for it too which makes it triple the cost. That is again, if the 15 year old existing keypads still work, are the same style as the new stuff (designer vs. decora), haven't turned all yellow, etc.

    The original radio ra (with the left to right fas switch )was a joke I'm sorry to say. I would program a button and it would work but when I'd program another button, the last one would lose its programming somehow. It was very low end compared to homeworks interactive, or hell, the original Homeworks. That's just not the case anymore. If every customer we had lived in a $5 million house and they were willing to spend money on a new top of the line system every 5 years, I'd be living in one of those houses myself. Maybe I'm not the best salesman but in my experience we don't gain lifelong customers by trying to push a product they don't want or need. Radio Ra2 for most people is still plenty of system. Having lived through the nightmare of a bridged ra2 system, I have also seen how it can be oversold so if QS is the right system, I tell the customers that too. I don't work for Lutron, but most of the time I recommend them and other times I have better products for the particular job. If you are able to convert every old Lutron job into a QS job then god bless you and I'm sure your local Lutron rep loves you too. For me, the answer is "It depends".

  5. #35
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    Oh and sparky just so you know the downward waterfall on the keypads means there is no program on the processor the upward waterfall means a bad mux link/ wire. Also there is the possibility the power supply has gone bad and is barely getting power and when you disconnect all the others it is fine. Those are just some of the possibilities.

    If only one light or a few, there is the possibility to reboot it in safe mode and then restart it again and they can come back to life. IF there are no lights yes you might be screwed but I brought one back 4 weeks ago in saratoga that had no lights on it.

    And I do not even claim to know all of the tricks. Just know that there alot of solutions out there, many of them include a little prayer.

  6. #36
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    For what it's worth, I always call tech support before calling a system dead.

    Speaking of tricks, oddly enough, last time after I called tech support and confirmed the series 4 was dead and Tech support specifically told me that QS was the only solution and there was no way to purchase another one of the 4 series (I thought to at least to ask and have that option for the customer given I just met them 30 minutes earlier and was about to give them bad news), I found out on this very forum that there is a discontinued parts department (I don't? recall the email address) that I could have contacted them to see if they could make that part from leftover material.

    Just for giggles I did ask them(after the fact and for future reference) if they had a series 4 processor and how much it would have be and got a generic "it's on a case by case basis" response. After pushing them for a more committed answer and why tech support never mentioned them, they kind of got rude and refused to answer and just repeated the case by case thing. For some houses every day without lights is a big deal so I would have hoped they gave me a better answer so I could be ready the next time but here we are. Repair service would be nice too.

    Anyway, I hope this was useful to the poster....I'm exhausted.

  7. #37
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    Oh and sparky just so you know the downward waterfall on the keypads means there is no program on the processor the upward waterfall means a bad mux link/ wire. Also there is the possibility the power supply has gone bad and is barely getting power and when you disconnect all the others it is fine. Those are just some of the possibilities.

    If only one light or a few, there is the possibility to reboot it in safe mode and then restart it again and they can come back to life. IF there are no lights yes you might be screwed but I brought one back 4 weeks ago in saratoga that had no lights on it.

    And I do not even claim to know all of the tricks. Just know that there alot of solutions out there, many of them include a little prayer.

  8. #38
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    Homeworkorignals help

    My Lutron system is waterfalling. (top to bottom), We have had a electrician out and we have the program (original owner was smart enough to leave a floppy disk inside the panel), The electrician (Lutron certified ) ran diagnostics and said there appeared to be an error in the system at one keypad. I ordered the two button pad on line (praying it is good - since this model is no longer produced)

    Could the Lutron certified electrian replace this two button pad? Would that potentially correct the issue?

    He is suggesting an entirely new system - which is $14K Yikes
    This is crazy - we only use this to turn lights off/on in a few rooms.

    Thoughts?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinh View Post
    My Lutron system is waterfalling. (top to bottom), We have had a electrician out and we have the program (original owner was smart enough to leave a floppy disk inside the panel), The electrician (Lutron certified ) ran diagnostics and said there appeared to be an error in the system at one keypad. I ordered the two button pad on line (praying it is good - since this model is no longer produced)

    Could the Lutron certified electrian replace this two button pad? Would that potentially correct the issue?

    He is suggesting an entirely new system - which is $14K Yikes
    This is crazy - we only use this to turn lights off/on in a few rooms.

    Thoughts?
    Are you getting waterfalls on all the keypads or this one keypad? If it's all the keypads and he determined this one keypad is the problem, you can just disconnect this one and supposedly everything would go back to working. Also what do you mean by the original Lutron? If it's THE original, like from 20+ years ago, or is it the Interactive or possibly Illuminations model? Honestly, if it's the original, we don't even bother with it unless a keypad is completely worn out and they happen to have a spare that we can match the dip switches on. You have to remember that it's only in the last 5-6 years that this stuff is mainstream and the price has dropped... Your original system probably cost 3 times as much so 14k doesn't sound that bad and is a barebones system. You do gain a lot of functionality with a new system and it would add value to the house since automation is very mainstream now and Lutron is the best name.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinh View Post
    My Lutron system is waterfalling. (top to bottom), We have had a electrician out and we have the program (original owner was smart enough to leave a floppy disk inside the panel), The electrician (Lutron certified ) ran diagnostics and said there appeared to be an error in the system at one keypad. I ordered the two button pad on line (praying it is good - since this model is no longer produced)

    Could the Lutron certified electrian replace this two button pad? Would that potentially correct the issue?

    He is suggesting an entirely new system - which is $14K Yikes
    This is crazy - we only use this to turn lights off/on in a few rooms.

    Thoughts?
    Hi- if you could send a photo of the processor inside the dimming panel that would help us understand what generation homeworks is involved.

    Are all the keypads waterfalling or just the one reporting the error?

    Generally if one bad keypad is shutting down the system, I'd diagnose it by removing it from the wall and disconnecting it from the wiring harness. If the keypad was truly the fault, removing it from the link should restore functionality to the rest of the keypads.

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