Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Disappointed in progress of Lutron compatible LED bulbs.

  1. #1

    Disappointed in progress of Lutron compatible LED bulbs.

    Before I start with my gripe about Lutron's Maestro dimmers (be it standalone, RR, Wireless Homeworks, RR2, QS, RF, etc.) I am fully aware that Lutron has many dimmers WITH neutral that are compatible. I recently worked on a house that had almost all LED lighting and universal RadioRa2 dimmers were selected and except for an undercounter light, everything worked great. That is not the issue.

    The issue I have is that I have yet to find an LED bulb that even comes close to having decent functionality with Lutron's regular magnetic maestro dimmers like the RRD-6D or the QS equivalent.

    It's hard to look a customer who has spent $40,000 on a system just 4 years ago (a time when few people used LED bulbs) in the eye and tell them that in order to switch to LED lights, we have to replace all their dimmers to a different dimmer and to update their programming. It's even worse for customers who have radio ra classic or Wireless Homeworks since the closest dimmers they have to LED is ELV dimmers which may or may not work.

    Does lutron have any solution at all for dimming, or even switching LED bulbs (without blinking) with the MLV dimmers without a neutral? I know the non-neutral 8S switches came with a little capacitor which would let them work (though not factory reset), but there is no such option for dimmers. Is there any hope for the future when incandescent and halogen bulbs are not going to be around?

    The only solution that kind of works is to keep one regular bulb on the circuit and change the rest to LED but somehow I don't think that's a good solution on a multi million dollar house.

  2. Likes wvnovice liked this post
  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SparkyCoog View Post
    Before I start with my gripe about Lutron's Maestro dimmers (be it standalone, RR, Wireless Homeworks, RR2, QS, RF, etc.) I am fully aware that Lutron has many dimmers WITH neutral that are compatible. I recently worked on a house that had almost all LED lighting and universal RadioRa2 dimmers were selected and except for an undercounter light, everything worked great. That is not the issue.

    The issue I have is that I have yet to find an LED bulb that even comes close to having decent functionality with Lutron's regular magnetic maestro dimmers like the RRD-6D or the QS equivalent.

    It's hard to look a customer who has spent $40,000 on a system just 4 years ago (a time when few people used LED bulbs) in the eye and tell them that in order to switch to LED lights, we have to replace all their dimmers to a different dimmer and to update their programming. It's even worse for customers who have radio ra classic or Wireless Homeworks since the closest dimmers they have to LED is ELV dimmers which may or may not work.

    Does lutron have any solution at all for dimming, or even switching LED bulbs (without blinking) with the MLV dimmers without a neutral? I know the non-neutral 8S switches came with a little capacitor which would let them work (though not factory reset), but there is no such option for dimmers. Is there any hope for the future when incandescent and halogen bulbs are not going to be around?

    The only solution that kind of works is to keep one regular bulb on the circuit and change the rest to LED but somehow I don't think that's a good solution on a multi million dollar house.
    LUT-LBX Synthetic Minimum Load


    which contains a $5 resistor

  4. #3
    There is a graph for lut-lbx which shows how it works electrically (i think it was in the spec sheet), and it is not linear so im not sure how it can equate to $5 resistor

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ekimla View Post
    There is a graph for lut-lbx which shows how it works electrically (i think it was in the spec sheet), and it is not linear so im not sure how it can equate to $5 resistor

    Haha so the current solution is to cut a 2 gang box above the dimmer, intercept the switch leg, and spend another $170 on this gizmo for every dimmer in the house?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ekimla View Post
    There is a graph for lut-lbx which shows how it works electrically (i think it was in the spec sheet), and it is not linear so im not sure how it can equate to $5 resistor
    Ok perhaps true I was going off of information I read elsewhere.

    However I do know that people are using $3 resistors to eliminate these LED issues with other electronic dimmers and some mount them inside the lighting cans.

  7. #6
    I suppose my overall point is that I find it interesting that people would complain that Lutron has not developed dimmers that are more widely compatible with LEDs. To me, it is like blaming Ford that their Mustang does not work well off-road. The Mustang was not designed for off-road, and there are so many different types of "off-road" conditions.
    since the manufacturing of LED dimming drivers is not industry standardized, everyone can make a driver for their LED lamp however they want, akin to various "off-road" conditions. So some drivers are less off-road than others, but ultimately it is LED lamp that should be complained about. i.e Try a different LED lamp if you are not happy with the performance.
    Lutron does test various LED lamps and publishes compatibility reports at www.lutron.com/ledtool. Is that not a significant effort to appease people that want to start using LEDS before letting the industry settle on standards?
    it seems that people should be complaining about a lack of standards. My response to that would be that this is like complaining you want the snow to disappear from your locale in the middle of winter. Fair enough, but it takes time and money and effort to develop the standards. The market is very eager for LED solutions but is ahead of the industry itself. A case of one foot in front of the other. We just have to be patient and let the industry figure out how to walk.

  8. Thanks RA2-Designer-Gal thanked for this post
    Likes RA2-Designer-Gal, Armando B. liked this post
  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ekimla View Post
    I suppose my overall point is that I find it interesting that people would complain that Lutron has not developed dimmers that are more widely compatible with LEDs. To me, it is like blaming Ford that their Mustang does not work well off-road. The Mustang was not designed for off-road, and there are so many different types of "off-road" conditions.
    since the manufacturing of LED dimming drivers is not industry standardized, everyone can make a driver for their LED lamp however they want, akin to various "off-road" conditions. So some drivers are less off-road than others, but ultimately it is LED lamp that should be complained about. i.e Try a different LED lamp if you are not happy with the performance.
    Lutron does test various LED lamps and publishes compatibility reports at www.lutron.com/ledtool. Is that not a significant effort to appease people that want to start using LEDS before letting the industry settle on standards?
    it seems that people should be complaining about a lack of standards. My response to that would be that this is like complaining you want the snow to disappear from your locale in the middle of winter. Fair enough, but it takes time and money and effort to develop the standards. The market is very eager for LED solutions but is ahead of the industry itself. A case of one foot in front of the other. We just have to be patient and let the industry figure out how to walk.
    I think gas additives is the better car analogy. Let's say the gas companies found an alternative gas with 10% ethanol that would satisfy some real or imaginary need (ie. LED bulbs). Let's say that same additive would work just fine on Chevy, Toyota, BMW, Etc, but for some reason not work with Mustang. Mustang fixes the issue with their next lineup of cars (ie. Lutron comes out with new Neutral dimmers that can handle LED bulbs) and then does nothing for the 10's of thousands of people who have already bought the old Mustang, some of which have a Mustang that they spent $30,000 buying just last year and either have to buy a new mustang to buy the new gas, or start hoarding the old gas just so their lights come on. Is it unreasonable to ask Mustang to work more closely with gas companies to try to change the new formula to be backwards compatible?

    I'm not claiming to be an expert on the technical side, but that's part of Lutron's responsibility. I have tried every LED bulb out there on virtually every Lutron Dimmer. I've found that Phillips light bulbs in general don't work well with most dimmers that don't have a neutral. I've found that the new Satco's work very well with even a regular manual Lutron DV-600 dimmers. I have not yet found a single LED bulb that works even remotely reliably with any Lutron Maestro dimmer that doesn't have a neutral. The easy cop-out is to say "Well, Lutron doesn't make light bulbs, why are you blaming them?" I'm blaming Lutron because Lutron is an industry standard when it comes to dimming, so I have no doubt that a light bulb manufacturer has consulted Lutron's engineers before calling their light bulbs dimmable. I'm also blaming Lutron for not coming out with at least a work-around for already installed systems in the form of a small device that can be installed between the switch leg and dimmer. Lutron is the standard, they should be the ones taking the leadership role in creating the standards.

    I'm very patient, but I doubt my customers are. I love Lutron and am certified in every residential system they have so in the spirit of having a frank discussion, I think the needs of existing systems needs to be discussed without getting offended.

  10. Likes wvnovice, RA2-Designer-Gal liked this post
  11. #8
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    61
    SparkyCoog does make some good points, however the LED industry is slightly more complicated than the gas analogy. Currently, Lutron tests many different LEDs and shares the results of those tests with the tested bulb manufacturer so they know how well they perform on each of our controls.

    As a general rule, dimmers with a neutral do not rely on the lighting load to complete the circuit, thus they may have improved performance over dimmers that do not have a neutral. There is currently not a universally accepted standard for dimming performance, which means that there is no test the lamp must pass before the word “dimmable” appears on the packaging. The testing for dimmability is at the discretion of the lighting manufacturer. Lutron has no say on what products lighting manufacturers release or what products are deemed dimmable. Until there is a standard that is universally accepted, compatibility testing is the only way to guarantee acceptable dimming performance when a particular bulb and control are paired together.

    As you have noticed, digital dimmers (such as your RadioRA2, HWQS, Maestro RF, etc.) will tend to have a more difficult time than analog style controls (Diva, Skylark, Ariadni, etc.) on LED lighting, due to the sensitivity of LED bulbs. For this reason, we strongly encourage you to reference our online LED Product Selection Tool (www.lutron.com/ledtool) to ensure the dimmer you wish to use has been tested and will perform well with a particular LED.

  12. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ty W. View Post
    SparkyCoog does make some good points, however the LED industry is slightly more complicated than the gas analogy. Currently, Lutron tests many different LEDs and shares the results of those tests with the tested bulb manufacturer so they know how well they perform on each of our controls.

    As a general rule, dimmers with a neutral do not rely on the lighting load to complete the circuit, thus they may have improved performance over dimmers that do not have a neutral. There is currently not a universally accepted standard for dimming performance, which means that there is no test the lamp must pass before the word “dimmable” appears on the packaging. The testing for dimmability is at the discretion of the lighting manufacturer. Lutron has no say on what products lighting manufacturers release or what products are deemed dimmable. Until there is a standard that is universally accepted, compatibility testing is the only way to guarantee acceptable dimming performance when a particular bulb and control are paired together.

    As you have noticed, digital dimmers (such as your RadioRA2, HWQS, Maestro RF, etc.) will tend to have a more difficult time than analog style controls (Diva, Skylark, Ariadni, etc.) on LED lighting, due to the sensitivity of LED bulbs. For this reason, we strongly encourage you to reference our online LED Product Selection Tool (www.lutron.com/ledtool) to ensure the dimmer you wish to use has been tested and will perform well with a particular LED.

    All due respect, I am aware that dimmers with a neutral complete the circuit internally, but in almost all cases, they cost more, and take longer to install as there is an extra wire and so, in most installed houses, the existing dimmer has no neutral. The list you linked to is not any help with dimmers without a neutral since unless I'm mistaking, there is not a single brand LED light bulb that can work with say, an RR-6D. Notice by work, I'm not asking for perfection, but there is not a single one that can even turn on and off reliably even if the homeowner can live without the ability to dim. In that regard, the car/gas analogy fits. A dumb switch can still control LED lights. A manual $24 dimmer can still turn on and off most LED lights and dim them - even if not perfectly. For a homeowner who spent $30,000-$60,000 just a few years ago on "smart dimmers", they're not going to be very patient when you tell them their super expensive dimmers that they were told they couldn't live without can't even do what a $2.50 switch can do.

    Are you are aware of a single LED par lamp that can work in any capacity with Maestro style dimmers that DON'T have a neutral? Are there any workarounds besides making at least one light bulb in be a traditional bulb? Resistor (or maybe capacitor) of some sort the way you have for switches? Just even one LED bulb that works with an RR-6D or QS's version of 6D? They no longer sell 90watt par38's and the 80 watt par lamps are not going to be around so this is going to be a somewhat serious issue and make people lose trust in lighting systems in my opinion. I'm sure Lutron would love it if we could ask the homeowners to update all their dimmers, but that's a tough sell!

  13. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    3
    The RRD-6D has a minimum load of 50 watts. In LED lighting, 50 watts is a good bit of electricity.
    The minimum load requirement is (likely) tied to the lack of a neutral wire. Triacs have a non-trivial holding-current requirement.
    [In comparison, the RRD-6NA has a 5 watt minimum load, and is adaptive (leading and trailing edge support), but requires a neutral.]

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. help with selecting bulbs for outdoor pot lights
    By gurp99 in forum General Discussion - RA2
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-15-2013, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •