Caseta ELV dimmer

[bozack]

I am usually specifying dimmers prior to construction and without a fixture schedule. Neutral wire dimmers have someplace for the "noise" that gets created by dimming the driver to go. In your situation, the C*L type non-neutral dimmer is designed for a majority of situations where it is a screw in type bulb. But I have had other sources (fans, motors, other dimmed LEDs) on the same circuit which created flickering issues. Neutral dimmers will almost always correct that situation. The money isn't that much more- consider it cheap aspirin compared to troubleshooting some designer's weird European fixture the electrician had to modify for USA.

Thanks, I guess I am lucky that where I am even though house prices are upwards of 800K they still use pretty standard fixtures from home depot and low budget toggles and outlets (don't think they could have gotten any cheaper where I just bought)...every bulb was the cheapest ecosmart they could find.

[julianm]

Thanks, I guess I am lucky that where I am even though house prices are upwards of 800K they still use pretty standard fixtures from home depot and low budget toggles and outlets (don't think they could have gotten any cheaper where I just bought)...every bulb was the cheapest ecosmart they could find.

Not sure where you're located, but in California there are fairly strict regulations on the lighting that can go into kitchens + bathrooms (for new build or permitted reno). Since basically no one really makes GU24 sockets nor bulbs, we end up with all sorts of weird fixtures with built-in LEDs we can't easily replace.

[Texas_Smarthome]

This seems like a great forum, this is my first post. I recently bought 6 PD-5NE for use in my new house. I bought these versus the PD-6WCL because in 6 switch locations I plan to install LED strip lighting on a MLV power transformer and I wanted the best compatibility and dimming performance. I'm also a little OCD and I wanted all the switches in the same box to look the same. It was painful to pay $100 each for these. Anyway... I installed the first two of these dimmers this weekend. One is in a 3-way switch location and is switching two ceiling mounted fixtures with CREE 60W LED bulbs (SA19-08127MDFD-12DE26-1-14). I bought these bulbs because they fixed a buzzing problem in a stand along fixture. The Cree website says they are compatible with the PD-6WCL. I assume the 5NE is too new to be tested, and really I can't expect every dimmer to be tested with every bulb and I suspect even bulbs with the same part number have different components in them.

So after installing the 5NE on the I get buzzing on the overhead fixtures. But it is strange, there are two fixtures, both on the same dimmer, both with identical bulbs, but only one seems to buzz. And it buzzes the loudest on full brightness and continues to buzz as it dims but buzzes less as the dimming goes to the lowest level. I thought this is really odd. Any ideas why it might be buzzing? It did not buzz with mechanical switches in the circuit. Could a single bulb be buzzing due to a manufacturing problem?

Here is some more information

- Yes I connected the dimmer to neutral. The box this is installed in has a 2nd 5NE and a PD-6ANS that controls an outside light. All three are connected to neutral and all the neutrals are tied together.
- The 5NE seems to function normally. I don't get any error codes. I connected to the Lutron hub as normal.
- In the Location 2 (the location where the Pico remotes will go) there are two sets of wires, one for the overheads and one for cove lighting that is not yet installed. In this box the whites were tied only to the white on the same fixture. They were not tied together. Should these have all been tied together like the neutrals in Location 1?

Would switching the dimmer from leading edge to trailing edge help? I recall seeing that this can be done but can't find the instructions.

Thanks in advance.

[Texas_Smarthome]

One more thing I noticed, the Cree dimmer documentation says there can only be 7 bulbs on a PD-6ANS. I'm not sure why that would be the case. But I do have 8 bulbs total in the two fixtures.

[SDR-Mike]

@Texas-
For MLV transformers, I would force the 5NE to forward phase. From experience, the ELV will create difficulties for you when on the MLV transformers, not to mention some other issues with durability of components. Were you able to make this switch? I'm sorry, but do not have the instructions at hand at the moment.

[Texas_Smarthome]

@Texas-
For MLV transformers, I would force the 5NE to forward phase. From experience, the ELV will create difficulties for you when on the MLV transformers, not to mention some other issues with durability of components. Were you able to make this switch? I'm sorry, but do not have the instructions at hand at the moment.

I found the instructions here... http://www.casetawireless.com/Docume...ange-Phase.pdf

Just to clarify, this particular dimmer is directly dimming two fixtures with LED bulbs. This is not the circuit with the MLV transformer. But what you are saying is that for my LED strip light project I should use an ELV power supply rather than an MLV power supply. I thought MLV based systems would have superior dimming performance.

Thanks

[Texas_Smarthome]

It worked! I changed from the default forward phase "MLV" to reverse phase "ELV" and no more buzzing. However the instructions in the link above are not quite correct. It shows tapping the up or dn arrow buttons to switch but you really hit the on/off buttons to switch. Here are the steps to switch modes on the 5NE...

1) Pull out the FASS switch and push it back in
2) Push and hold the ON and OFF buttons at the same time for approx 6 seconds until the top and bottom LED light
3) One LED will be flashing, one will be constant. The flashing LED is the current state. If the top LED is flashing it is in forward/MLV phase, if the bottom is flashing it is in reverse/ELV phase
4) Press and release the OFF button to switch to reverse/ELV phase, the bottom LED should be flashing
5) OR, press and release the ON button to switch to forward/MLV phase, the top LED should be flashing
6) Press and hold the OFF button for ~6 sec to save the setting.

Thanks for the help...

[Gator Bite]

As someone new to this could I ask why? or is it situational? I have been using the non neutral casetas for a while now (couple of years) and have had no issues to speak of, then again I don't have anything elaborate in terms of lighting just some standard 5" cans with LED bulbs and other contractor grade fixtures.

I'd like to add to what SDR-Mike had to say on this.

Caseta dimmers are electronic devices. Inside of them there is a radio that's constantly listening for commands from the Smart Bridge. There's also a microprocessor that's monitoring the radio and the buttons and waiting to react to them. These two circuits require voltage and current to work. All electrical circuits need a continuous flow path between positive and negative. When you use a Dimmer that has no neutral, there is no clear or consistent path for that current to flow. These "neutral free" dimmers must flow current through the device (the load) that you are controlling to have enough current to work. When we're controlling an incandescent light bulb, this isn't a problem. A basic light bulb is just a filament (a very thin piece of wire). We can flow a tiny amount of current through a filament, enough to power our radio and microprocessor without heating it to the point where the bulb lights up. So we never really turn the light off. When we start hooking up "neutral free" dimmers to LEDs, Electronic Transformers, Motors, etc..., that whole equation changes. That small amount of current may be enough to tease the load device, cause it to malfunction, damage it, cause noise and/or cause risk of shock (stick your finger in a light socket that's turned off, you'll see what I mean).

Additionally, when we have a "neutral free" dimmer, we can never reach full brightness on the controlled load. For us to reach full brightness, the resistance between our two leads on the dimmer would have to be 0 ohms. If we achieved 0 ohms there would be no voltage across the two leads and therefore nothing left to power the microprocessor and radio. We would not be able to turn the dimmer off. So.... "neutral free dimmers" can only get up to about 95% brightness, leaving us about 6 volts across the dimmer to power it's internal circuits. Ultimately, when you use one of these dimmers you never really reach 0 or 100%.

A dimmer that has a neutral wire doesn't suffer from these problems. It can pass a little bit of current between the Hot and the Neutral, completely independent of the Load. This means that you get a consistent path for current flow, consistent performance, no noise and full variability from 0 to 100%.

For anyone who knows how electricity works, neutral wire dimmers are the only way to go.

[Gator Bite]

I installed a PD-5NE (ELV Dimmer) this weekend and wanted to share. I know there are lots of very experienced and knowledgeable lighting people here who will not find this experience surprising. But I also see plenty of less experienced people here who might benefit from my experience, so here goes....

I started experimenting with Caseta dimmers back in October. I started with a (4) PD-6ANS dimmers that I got from the Home Depot (the only Caseta dimmer they offer). One of my original lighting loads was a WAC Electronic Low Voltage rail light. I have two incandescent pendants hanging from the rail (25W xenon bulbs), and three LED MR-16s (Eco Smart 8W 3K). I had installed the PD-6ANS knowing that the electronic transformer probably wouldn't like it. Man, was that an understatement. When I first turned that light on, the transformer was buzzing, whizzing, hissing. Even on full bright it was making a pretty noticeable audible noise. Dim it at all and the noise shifted, got louder and more obnoxious and the LEDs started flickering and flashing (I just assumed that the LED bulbs were not dimmable). Noise and LED performance aside, I knew that the transformer didn't like it and would ultimately be destroyed if I left that dimmer in place, so I removed it and put the rocker switch back (I never even screwed it into the box).

This weekend I installed a PD-5NE ELV dimmer on that same light. As soon as I did I programmed it for ELV phase. When I turn it on for the first time I was grinding my teeth. Based on my prior experience, I wasn't sure what to expect. I had concluded earlier that the LED bulbs would need to be replaced but figured I'd see how it worked anyway. To my surprise, the light went through the range from off to full bright smoothly and silently without drama. Hmmmm..... I dimmed the intensity and the light performed fantastic... And guess what...? The LEDs did great too... They dimmed like LEDs do, (which is weird - no color shift). But they dimmed very well all the way down to almost nothing. The transformer remained quiet and did not protest at any point of the range. The difference in results between using the wrong dimmer versus using the right dimmer on an ELV transformer is stunning.

Moral of my story: If you've got an ELV load, don't mess around. Get the right dimmer on there and you'll be very pleased.

[Alan In Az]

Caseta now has an ELV dimmer. However I have actually had good luck using a standard 2 wire Caseta dimmer for smaller loads ~100W of LED's via a Hitlights LED dimmable driver for 12v LED's.

The ELV dimmer is a 3 wire dimmer (has a neutral) this tends to be compatible with many more LED 120v bulbs too. Cateta actually has another dimmer that has a neutral that also has a wider compatibilty for 120V LED bulbs - But is not an ELV dimmer. check around these are not available everywhere.

Alan